10 July 2012
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown opposes the Bill raising concerns at the prospect of two elected Houses causing legislation gridlock and about the prospect of electing members using the d'Hondt proportional representation. He praises the success of the current House of Lords where members appointed for their expertise make valuable contributions to the work of Parliament.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): I have sat in the Chamber for two days and I have heard some wonderful speeches, but it was not until my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) got up that any sort of case was made in favour of an elected House of Lords. He made the case on the basis that we have an over-powerful Executive and that we need a more effective House of Lords to deal with it. From that point onwards, I disagreed with him.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) pointed out the extreme paradox in the Bill, which is that if one is proposing an elected House of Lords, one inevitably expects those Members to be ever more effective and if they are ever more effective, they will be ever more effective at challenging the primacy of this House. I would have an non-monetary bet with anybody in this House that, if the Bill is passed, within five years we will have a constitutional crisis on our hands along American lines, with gridlock between the two Houses.
Many Members have commented on how effective the House of Lords is at present. They have cited the fact that the Blair Government were defeated 460 times in the House of Lords, whereas we in this House only defeated them four times. I would like to know from the proponents of the Bill what it is about the House of Lords that needs changing. Yes, we can all agree on a lot of things—the numbers, the retirement, the criminals and getting rid of the hereditaries—but what needs fixing at the present time? I would say that very little needs fixing; in fact, there is a lot that is very good about the House of Lords. My hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Mr Walter) pointed out that ambassadors, ex-generals and members of the medical profession sit there. I heard a wonderful speech the other day from Baroness Grey-Thompson, who has won 10 gold medals in the Paralympics and has so much to contribute to the House of Lords. Will such people really be elected under the proposed system? I doubt it.
Let us turn to the Bill. It proposes that Members are elected for 15 years. The hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) pointed out very clearly what will happen, as they will go around cherry-picking the issues to get publicity. That is not good for democracy. The promoters of the Bill say that they will deal with that problem by not giving them expenses to have a constituency office. Will we have two classes of elected peers––those who can afford to have constituency offices under their own means and those who cannot? That is one of the many flaws in the Bill.
The electoral method proposed for Great Britain in the Bill is the d’Hondt system, deliberately designed in Europe to favour the minority parties. Funny, that, is it not? Then we want to confuse the electorate totally, so we give them a different system in Northern Ireland with a single transferable vote. What a way to run a Bill.
We then come on to the whole business of a referendum. I give this House notice that if the Bill reaches Report, I shall table an amendment on a referendum. I am sure that many of my hon. Friends will support a referendum. I was delighted to hear from the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, that Labour Members would support a referendum. I hope that together, if the Bill gets anywhere near the statute book, we can at least ensure that we ameliorate the worst aspects of it by putting the question to the British people. If the British people approve of it, I will be happy, but I suspect that in a referendum they will not and I will be even more happy if they do not.
We must be very clear about what we need to do and we need a clear vision of what we want both Houses to do. We need the Electoral Commission to work that out. Then, instead of trying to fix one half, let us try to fix the whole thing. There is no doubt that our electorate think that Parliament is not as effective as it should be—that is proved by the fact that turnouts in our elections are decreasing.
I am delighted that the Government have withdrawn the timetable. I look forward hugely to debating the Bill in Committee, but I look forward even more keenly to the Government taking a long, hot summer and withdrawing this bad Bill altogether.
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Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): I have sat in the Chamber for two days and I have heard some wonderful speeches, but it was not until my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) got up that any sort of case was made in favour of an elected House of Lords. He made the case on the basis that we have an over-powerful Executive and that we need a more effective House of Lords to deal with it. From that point onwards, I disagreed with him.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) pointed out the extreme paradox in the Bill, which is that if one is proposing an elected House of Lords, one inevitably expects those Members to be ever more effective and if they are ever more effective, they will be ever more effective at challenging the primacy of this House. I would have an non-monetary bet with anybody in this House that, if the Bill is passed, within five years we will have a constitutional crisis on our hands along American lines, with gridlock between the two Houses.
Many Members have commented on how effective the House of Lords is at present. They have cited the fact that the Blair Government were defeated 460 times in the House of Lords, whereas we in this House only defeated them four times. I would like to know from the proponents of the Bill what it is about the House of Lords that needs changing. Yes, we can all agree on a lot of things—the numbers, the retirement, the criminals and getting rid of the hereditaries—but what needs fixing at the present time? I would say that very little needs fixing; in fact, there is a lot that is very good about the House of Lords. My hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Mr Walter) pointed out that ambassadors, ex-generals and members of the medical profession sit there. I heard a wonderful speech the other day from Baroness Grey-Thompson, who has won 10 gold medals in the Paralympics and has so much to contribute to the House of Lords. Will such people really be elected under the proposed system? I doubt it.
Let us turn to the Bill. It proposes that Members are elected for 15 years. The hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) pointed out very clearly what will happen, as they will go around cherry-picking the issues to get publicity. That is not good for democracy. The promoters of the Bill say that they will deal with that problem by not giving them expenses to have a constituency office. Will we have two classes of elected peers––those who can afford to have constituency offices under their own means and those who cannot? That is one of the many flaws in the Bill.
The electoral method proposed for Great Britain in the Bill is the d’Hondt system, deliberately designed in Europe to favour the minority parties. Funny, that, is it not? Then we want to confuse the electorate totally, so we give them a different system in Northern Ireland with a single transferable vote. What a way to run a Bill.
We then come on to the whole business of a referendum. I give this House notice that if the Bill reaches Report, I shall table an amendment on a referendum. I am sure that many of my hon. Friends will support a referendum. I was delighted to hear from the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, that Labour Members would support a referendum. I hope that together, if the Bill gets anywhere near the statute book, we can at least ensure that we ameliorate the worst aspects of it by putting the question to the British people. If the British people approve of it, I will be happy, but I suspect that in a referendum they will not and I will be even more happy if they do not.
We must be very clear about what we need to do and we need a clear vision of what we want both Houses to do. We need the Electoral Commission to work that out. Then, instead of trying to fix one half, let us try to fix the whole thing. There is no doubt that our electorate think that Parliament is not as effective as it should be—that is proved by the fact that turnouts in our elections are decreasing.
I am delighted that the Government have withdrawn the timetable. I look forward hugely to debating the Bill in Committee, but I look forward even more keenly to the Government taking a long, hot summer and withdrawing this bad Bill altogether.
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